In Conversation: Vincent Ciarlo of The Tooth and Ethan Trammell of Discern

Two highly respected members of Oklahoma City's metal/hardcore scene sat down to discuss inspiration, community, and how they've progressed as artists.

Left: Ciarlo on stage with The Tooth, Right: Trammell performs with Discern (Photo by Steve Harrison @thesteveharr)

Ethan, how did you first become familiar with The Tooth?

Ethan: My two bandmates went their show with Portrayal of Guilt and Chat Pile. This was before Discern was real, we had no songs. But I went over the next day to jam and Preston (Kerran, Discern drummer) told me about The Tooth and played them for me. And, then, that became the only local band I listened to.

Earlier, you mentioned Mesuggah. Were they already a major influence for you at that point?

Ethan: Pre-Tooth? Yes. But not much before. I mean, I probably I got into metal when COVID started, so like March of 2020. Preston showed me Human by Death. And that was literally the only metal I listened to, that album back and forth on repeat. 

At that time, I had kind of a disdain toward metal. I guess I was kind of pretentious. Death was the only thing I liked until Preston showed me “Gods of Rapture” by Mesuggah. And that pretty much changed everything. Just the beginning of that song made no sense to me. (laughs)

Vincent: That is crazy. So you were like, what? 16 or 17?

Ethan: Yeah, probably 17 when I started liking metal, I think.

Vincent: And then like, three two years later, you start a metal band. A band that's better than the majority of metal bands to come out of Oklahoma! 

Ethan: I think I'm lucky to have skipped, like, the cringe phase. I started out liking the best metal there could possibly be.

Vincent: That's what I'm thinking. I mean, I got interested in metal when I was like 14 on MySpace. Grindcore with programmed drums. Like, literally, the most problematic, shitty, disgusting, not good music. I just thought it was fun. Like listening to Dying Fetus back in the day. I was like, “This guy sounds ridiculous”.

 I was making fun of it but I liked it. I did like heavy stuff, but I went through all the phases eventually. I feel like I just went through them naturally, hearing what everyone else was doing.

Ethan: When me and Preston first started playing together, he was like, really into black metal. And I was kind of into that but, not really. I had listened to like one Mayhem song. And I thought it was cool. But it wasn't until  he came to my house to like drop off an audio interface or something. And I heard “Lack of Comprehension” in his car. And I was like, “What is this?” He liked Dying Fetus a lot too.

Vincent: I feel like that is a big band for a lot of people. I didn't realize that because when I was showing people Dying Fetus, when I was 16, no one liked it. I wasn’t friends with a lot of older people that liked extreme metal. But that was around the time when I met Sean (Toahty, The Tooth bassist) and his band through his old drummer. 

That's when I got into mathcore and bands like Converge and Spitfire. Those are still some of my favorite bands ever. But that made me shift away from just what was available on MySpace to more extreme sounds, and I was stuck on that. I’m still stuck on that.

Was that Love Begotten? Sean's old band?

Vincent: Yeah, his drummer was my youth pastor and he was also a good friend of mine. He was like an older brother. We hung out a lot. He taught me about drums and got me to play drums in front of people for the first time. So he helped me get going on that path more seriously.

The Tooth live (Photo by Hannah Lirely @_han_cam_)

Did Love Begotten have a pretty strong following or was it hard for them to find an audience around here?

Vincent: They had a good group of people that loved them. But, from their point of view, they told me no one liked him here, that they would play way bigger shows outside of Oklahoma, like in Arkansas or Texas.

What I would consider really extreme music is not always easily understood. Like you have to be patient and think about it, maybe, I don't know. I like that kind of stuff. But that hasn’t always been the consensus in Oklahoma. I mean, the last really extreme band we had was Destroyer, Destroyer and people loved them, but that was a popular sound at the time, like the mid-2000s. 

That was the era of Dillinger Escape Plan and when Converge was really peaking. I think since that trend died, overall, it hasn’t really come back. People like that stuff. There are people for it, but it's not the majority opinion right now. 

Vincent, can you share your personal history with Discern?

Vincent: I remember seeing them for the first time and thinking, “I can’t believe what I’m hearing. This is really good.” I was envious of some of the things they were playing. I wish my band would have done that. And I was like, “How are these guys that are like, almost half my age, doing really great music where they come from?!” 

It restored my faith in humanity a little bit more. And my faith in Oklahoma music, period. I could tell this was somebody playing heavy stuff, but not the same thing as everyone else. They thought about it a little more. They tried to push themselves. That's the thing that I like. So I was just like,”I can't believe this shit.”

Ethan: Yeah, I do remember us being psyched. We posted a clip of us playing before our first show. And you messaged Preston or something and were like, “This is crazy.” (laughs)

Vincent: Yeah, I felt proud. And I don't feel that very often!

How does Discern approach songwriting? 

Ethan: It’s pretty much all me for the basic structure. My mood and what I’m inspired by changes all the time. But usually I'll sit down and come up with a riff. Once I have that riff I really like, I go to the computer. Then I just build from there. I record that part and program the drums. Then I'll play the part with the drums and then try and continue once the drums start and just see what happens. and that's kind of been how I've approached it. 

That’s how it’s been, but now it's kind of changing. Like, I know I need the computer, but I want to steer away from writing on the computer. When I first started writing, I was really into Mesuggah and they do everything on the computer, these really crazy things. So I would program the most ridiculous patterns and then everyone would get mad at me and the whole song would fall apart. 

So, we’ve been through changes. With our last release we’re using more screamo influences, but I feel like now I'm kind of going back to the really hard stuff. I think when I finally sit down to write the next stuff, it's gonna be different.

Vincent: That’s cool. Just be along for the ride. I feel like it took me like five releases to make something that aligns with my current interests. Like yeah, I like the things that I did. I don't regret it. But it took a long time for me to be confident, like “This is what I was looking for.” That took a long time. So I'm just saying write whatever the fuck you write.

Ethan: Yeah. I feel like for us “Visions”, was pandering a little bit. You know? That's like us just like riffing. I’m pretty happy with the last EP. I think it's pretty concise. Everything I wrote there had to be written, I guess. There was really nothing else that could change. It's a little technical, but it's not as technical as I want us to be at all. It's pretty straightforward, in my mind. I wanted to change that a little bit.

Discern live (Photo by Steve Harrison @thesteveharr)

Vincent, from the first time you mentioned seeing War, On Drugs (now known as Discern), you've always been really emphatic about them being a band that is worth watching. Why, in your opinion, should people be paying attention to Discern?

Vincent: I just think they're talented. They’re still really young. And they have so many years like to continue elaborating on such a strong beginning. It's already good. It can only get better. You guys have good tastes and good interests. All of you are interested in playing stuff that's challenging. And that's cool in extreme music, I think.

Ethan: I don't know. I think we're gonna decline once we can't rip The Tooth anymore. You know, there's gonna be nothing new for me to copy.

Vincent: I told you over and over again, I can tell you exactly who I ripped off. You have endless opportunities to do such a wide array of stuff. Like you could play harder music you could play easier music, if you want. With such a strong start, y’all have a lot of talent and I respect it.

When you think about Discern’s music, where do you feel like you notice The Tooth’s influence the most? Are there particular songs or parts that stand out?

Ethan: I guess I'm gonna out myself for ripping them off. But like, honestly, I think the only part is just the beginning of “The Depth”. I literally made that riff after Vinny sent me the MP3 to “Body & Mind II”. 

Album art from The Tooth / Primitve Rage split single by VC (@_webhead)

And I had just been listening to it all week. And then one night, I couldn't sleep because I was thinking about it too much. And so I just grabbed my guitar. It was like 4:00 am and I wrote the beginning of that song. 

Vincent: You know, what's funny is like, there's three songs where I directly ripped off Love Begotten. Like, if they played it instead of me and had their bandmates on it, it would be the song. But there's kind of like different components around it. 

Ethan: I made sure mine was different. The only thing I really did to make sure it was different was I added more numbers. I added random numbers that had no pattern. It was just something we had to memorize. 

Vincent: Yeah, you made it harder to do! You did what we couldn’t.

Ethan: It’s harder in terms of memory that doesn't necessarily make it better! There's no rhyme or reason to why I chose the numbers.

Vincent: Picasso said, “Good artists copy. Great artists steal.” Everyone steals.

Vincent, what does it mean to you to hear that your music has influenced younger bands and is this something that you recognize yourself when you listen to bands like Discern?

Vincent: I don't necessarily recognize that. If they did, it’s really flattering. Aside from that, I think that that's a positive sign, that somebody is watching what I do. 

I think that’s possibly the best, and most humbling, thing that could come from playing in a metal band in the local community. For me, since day one when I started playing in Sabretooth (now known as The Tooth), after some members dropped out and I joined I was like, ”I want to play heavier music.”

It's been a selfish endeavor since day one. I've always been trying to play in the band because I want to make something that I'm proud of, you know, and to do that with my friends. And it hasn't ever changed. So knowing that there have been benefits from it for someone else is not something I ever expected. 

I never thought it would do this well. I never thought anybody was going to care. I never knew that I would make friends the way that I have. I never knew I’d get the chance to play with the artists that I look up to. 

I think the best part, knowing that The Tooth is about to end is that, it has been inspiring to people, and especially people like Ethan and Preston and Jack (Love, Discern bassist). Those are the kinds of people I want to encourage and inspire because you remind me of me. 

Ethan: I think you're just going to have to send me like all the material you're not going to use because I don't know how I'm gonna write any songs.

Ethan, you mentioned “Body and Mind II”. Are there any other special memories that stand out to you from The Tooth's career?

Ethan: Well, I'm relatively new. I've only seen The Tooth like four times, I think. And three of them or two of those times I played with them. The first release I was aware of when it came out was We've Got Everything. I remember listening to it when it first came out. I was like doing laundry. And I just remember being blown away.

I had never heard a song that started and ended like “Spires.” Two minutes of riffs. And then four minutes of the same ambient guitar thing being repeated but with the drums shaping the whole song. 

So, I remember that and then playing the We've Got Everything release show is still the best show I've ever played today.

Vincent: And now you're gonna play the last one. It’s gonna be sick! We're gonna get a bunch of our older friends out, so make sure you have good merch!

I and a lot of people think that the lineup that was selected for that final Tooth show is very cool. You’re putting on a lot of younger bands. I don't know how all that goes down. But it feels like you could have put a lot of different bands on that bill. This feels right to me, to see that it's The Tooth and some younger bands that you want more people to hear from and see.

Vincent: Yeah, it was pretty hard to choose. Like, obviously we want to play with our friends. But, in my opinion, if we have a platform at all, if we have some kind of elevated reputation, it needs to be used in a way that can lift other people up. 

We did a split with Primitive Rage, they’ve expressed a lot of interest in our band. They started Primitive Rage because we toured through Springfiled a long time ago. They've always been very encouraging and supportive. And we’ve never actually played a show with them. 

And Fungus is the same way. They’re one of the coolest young bands. We respect them, you know? We want more people to watch them. 

And there's no question about Discern. The torch is being passed down to Discern. For being weirdo / not hardcore enough / not screamo enough / not metal enough. (laughs) Never fitting the bill quite right, ever. That’s how I’ve felt we’ve been. So, that’s the only other band for us to play with.

Vincent, kind of same question. Do you have any memorable experiences playing or working with Discern that stand out to you?

Vincent: Yeah, it was one of the Sanctuary shows. I think it was the first time you played “Visions” maybe?

Ethan: Yeah, I think it was the Godshell show.

Vincent: Maybe that was it? I don't know. 

Album art for Discern’s A Selfish Endeavor

Ethan: (laughs) I know the song you like. Yeah, that's been around since day one. But we still haven’t figured that one out. I hate the ending. And we want to redo it, but I can't figure out how. But yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah.

Vincent: That's a sick riff. It makes people want to mosh, but they don't know what to do. There's not many times where I feel like I'm watching something and it takes me out of my environment. And stuff like that is also the reason I play music. 

It takes me away, you know. It might be a corny way to say it. But, I like to leave! I don't want to be thinking about social status or people or anything or problems or my work or whatever. I don't want to fucking think about that. I want to leave and go somewhere. 

And it’s not very often that local bands give me that opportunity. It doesn’t mean that they’re bad. I don’t know. But most of the time, watching Discern, I do check out. 

I'm also really grateful that they've also let me do artwork for them, a logo and stuff. That stuff is really important and it’s something I'm aspiring to do. And it's not very often that I get to do that kind of thing for artists that I actually really like. I do it for people that I like. 

But working with Discern is a great opportunity for me. I'm really grateful that they’ve hit me up for that multiple times.

Ethan: Well, any time we do anything we’re going to hit you up.

Vincent: I hope I can deliver! I’m still learning.

One question that I'd love to hear from both of you on: how do you think The Tooth should be remembered after they hang it up in July?

Ethan: As the best band to ever come from Oklahoma. Gone too soon. Everyone should be crying. It should be the worst day of people's lives while also being the best day.

Vincent: (laughs) That’s looking at the glass half-empty. So when The Chariot broke up, they put out the album Long Live, which is one of the coolest thing ever. It's not like they're tooting their own horn or  saying they're the best. It was just like that they were putting to rest something that they know that a lot of people value. 

And it was like they're saying, “Let it live long in your memory. Cherish it how it was. And now it's gone.” And it never became something that sucked. I still love The Chariot, that band means a lot to me. That spirit is what The Tooth has always taken from and been inspired by. Not all of us, but me and Josh (Lehew, The Tooth vocalist) especially.

I've always carried that attitude that they shared. I want people to remember it however they want to remember it, but ultimately just remember to not take anything for granted. Nothing lasts forever. So continue to value good things, not just my band. Like everything that you're doing as a person. Celebrate the small victories and celebrate when you accomplish something and don’t forget it.

I'm okay with it. It needs to end and that's the best thing for all of us. It is sad. But I've never taken any moment for granted at all. I'm totally at peace and everything about it took me way further than any expectation that I ever had. Time to put it to rest. Long live the memories

How do you both feel about the current state of the music scene that you're a part of in Oklahoma. And what do you hope to see in the future?

Ethan: I think there's ups and downs to it all. I think right now it's in a really good place though. There are a lot of young kids, a lot of new bands, older bands that are very supportive. From a very selfish perspective, I get to play with most of the bands I listen to. They come to places like The Sanctuary and we're the only band that makes sense to open.

I'm just happy that, at least for the music I listen to, it's starting to become less of a flyover state. People outside of Oklahoma talk about what’s happening here and put people on and tell them to come play here. I think that's cool. 

And in the future I want more people to be inspired by Messugah and listen to The Tooth.

Vincent: That’s good to hear from your perspective. I think I agree with what Ethan said that it’s in a good place. More and a wider variety bands have come through here thanks to like Mekala, Aaron Johnson (of Mass Movement), and Backroom Productions. 

Discern will be featured on this year’s (INSANE) lineup for Soto’s Slamfest by Backroom Productions (@backroomproductionsokc)

There are separate parties really putting in work to bring more bands through here. And that's really cool. I also agree that there are so many more young kids. It seems like maybe the general consensus right now favors slam and hardcore. 

But, ultimately, I think that everyone seems to kind of like everyone, you know, at least a little bit more than when I was first in the scene. I just want to keep seeing that. Keep coming to shows and forming bands.. Play whatever you want to play. And don't just play where everyone else is playing. Get inspired by different things.

There are a ton of great bands already doing that, I think. But I would like to see more. So we can bring more bands here that aren't just mosh bands. Just be open minded and be yourself.

Ethan: And give the good bands that come here the audience they deserve. I feel like all the shows we play, there are people there but it's not the audience the bands that we’re playing with deserve.

I think what you're saying about inspiration is interesting though, Vincent. Because that's kind of what happened to both of you. Neither of your current bands sounded the way they do now when they started. They were both influenced by bands that it seems are pretty different than what you are mainly into now. 

And you were both inspired to evolve by somebody else from the local scene. That's what I hope for too, just as someone who shows up and hangs out. I want that process to keep repeating because I think it keeps things healthy and interesting.

Ethan: I’m definitely trying to work on opening up my perspective on what’s good music or not. I think everything should come together. I'm cool with us playing hardcore shows. I like that we get to do that.

And that feels important too. Because, even though things are growing, it's still not that big of a community. You see a lot of same people that every show. People are going to need to be somewhat open-minded to keep it all going. Because, I agree that we still don't draw the crowds that I would like to see for the quality of some of the bands that we're getting out here. 

Vincent: Yeah, I think Oklahoma’s always gonna be small, compared to some other places. But right now, it's probably the biggest it’s ever been. It seems to be going in a better direction for sure.